The impact of business coaching with Megan Martin

• Transcript

  Kaely Harrod 00:02

  Hello and welcome back to doula tips and tits. I am very, very excited because I have my doula coaching client. I'm like, what do I call you? My co-gee, Megan here with me today. We just wrapped up coaching on Monday when this episode comes out, which is sad because we've been working together for six months, but it's just like a see you soon, not a see you later situation.

  And so Megan, I would love for you to introduce yourself and tell the listeners where you are located, what kind of doula are you, et cetera. Give us a little rundown of your business.

  Megan Martin 00:40

  Yes, I would love to. Hi everyone, my name is Meghan Martin.

  I am in the glorious state of Minnesota in a suburb near Minneapolis. I am a birth doula mostly. I have done a little bit of postpartum work and also a lactation educator, though I did just take my certified lactation consultant exam, so I'm waiting to hear back. Yes, I know I'm so excited, but for now, a lactation educator, I'm supposed to say. So that and then, yeah, mainly those three things, birth, a little bit of postpartum every now and then, and then trying to lean into more lactation education lately too.

  Kaely Harrod 01:32

  I love that. And you have two kiddos, correct?

  Megan Martin 01:37

  I do. I have a six and a four-year-old, four and a half, because that's very important to her. She's four and a half. It's very important. Yeah.

  Kaely Harrod 01:44

  Yeah. Another do live is chatting with the other day was like, my kid was like, I'm three and a half. I'm three and a half. I'm three and a half. And then turned four. And the next day was like, I'm four and a half. And she was like, you are not. You are not. You are four and one day. That's not how it goes. Yeah. We don't just jump straight to half.

  I'm just like, I'm almost five. I turned four yesterday. Yep. That's exactly right. A little bit about temperament wise. Yes. That tracks. When did you start working as a doula and how long, like how, what's kind of the journey been?

  Megan Martin 02:23

  Yeah. So I took my initial doula training in January of 2024. So just over two-ish years now, though I will say I always say I took my doula training in January of 2024, but had my first doula client in June. Yeah, June of that same year, 2024.

  Sorry. The math is not math thing in my head for some reason, even though there's no math involved in that. And super exciting. So that my first doula client family who had their baby in June of 2024, they will be my first repeat family in June of 2026. So I'm very excited about that. I know I was like, Oh my gosh, that worked out so well. Yes, that's amazing. Yeah. So a little bit about the journey. So again, I took that three-day doula training workshop and was like, okay, this is definitely what I want to do, but now what? Now what am I doing? I quickly learned about doula match, quickly got on doula match, had somebody reach out through there relatively quickly. And I was like, Oh my gosh, now I need a website. So quickly did a website. And then like a lot of doulas do, I started with a really, really low rate for my area. I think honestly, just for, I mean, full transparency, because I think that's important, but I think I started at my first three clients booked me at $500. And then I just kind of quickly or like after three clients at $500, I moved up to 750, did a few clients there. And then I think, you know, moved up to 1000. So just kind of bumped up as I got more experience and just attended more births. But looking back, I mean, that is definitely one of the things that I don't regret. But when I talk to new doulas, it's definitely something that I call out that I like, don't do this thing that I did. I think for me, I didn't have the confidence that I would be a great doula and that I could charge more than that. So those first few births were really confidence building. But again, for any new doulas listening, like you're, you're a great doula just by being there. So you don't, you don't need to start at a low rate like that. That was kind of a tangent, I think on my journey. What else? Perfect. What else?

  Kaely Harrod 05:30

  I actually love, I love that tangent because that was one of my favorite things when we first met, like so Megan was, I first met Megan because she applied for my like free giveaway spot in my coaching and that she won that. So that was, she was my giveaway winner last year.

  And that's what's happening on Friday is, or that's what's happening until Friday. That giveaway is going on right now. Um, but part of what I saw in her right away is she was like, I would attend a birth and then be like, that's not enough money. Like raise it again. Like that was actually really hard work. Yeah. Like I'm not willing to be away from my family for 26 hours for just that little bit of money. And so I love that because what it showed me as a coach is like, okay, yeah, you have some stuff that you're like figuring out, but as you go, you're very open to pivoting and changing. And that's a huge piece. Like it's a lot harder to grow and be sustainable in your business. When you have the thought that like how you're currently doing it is the only right way. You know what I mean? So you were kind of like, Oh, I could be doing it all wrong. Just tell me and I'll change it. And I still say that to you, like nothing has changed. Yeah. Also, I feel like I don't know that I've ever actually said to you, maybe I've said it in a podcast episode, but in my first private client hired me in January of 2019 and I had had agency clients before that and I like my sister and my sister-in-law, you know, but my first private client, I charged them. My rate was 750 and I gave the first three people a 50% discount. So yeah. So I got paid like 375 or something. Yeah. Like it was so low and it's like laughable now, but even that I was like 300, you know, like I was just like, maybe if I say it quietly, it won't feel like a lot of money.

  Megan Martin 07:35

  Isn't that, isn't that so wild? And then now like just knowing the work and knowing that even if you don't have, I mean, obviously there's so much benefit in, in trainings and knowing just and having the experience of how different birth settings work and different providers work and different, um, you know, positioning, training, positionings, but all and even the, the evidence is even just says like your presence is worth, is worthwhile.

  And it is, it's so hard as a new doula to like really, really take that and believe that, but, um, it's, yeah, it's untrue. Yeah.

  Kaely Harrod 08:17

  It's necessary. Yeah.

  So you were not on the path. I think the other thing that you that stood out for me when I first met you is that you had attended birth really rapidly, but had pretty quickly found out that you were maybe not going to be able to attend that many births. Can you talk a little bit about that?

  Megan Martin 08:37

  Yes, that is such that you're bringing me, you are bringing me back to a little bit of a crazy time. Yes, my very first year, so if I think again, like from the very first private client that I had to kind of that, the first year after that baby turned one, I attended 37 births, which looking back, I'm like, it was such good experience. And I will say, I think two of those births were with a Dula mentor, a local Dula mentor who let me attend births with her, which was amazing experience. But that was 35, 35 of my own families in that first year. And I, I know that was really crazy. I'm just, it's like all coming back to me, how wild that was and how my husband was very much like, I'm happy for you, but like, can you come home sometimes too?

  What's going on? Yes, I quickly learned that that was not the right pace for me again, and that was two years ago, so my kids were four and two. And just from a, from a family, like being home for my family when I want to be home for my family, it wasn't working, but it also just didn't feel like I was going to be like the Dula that I wanted to be either. Something that I talked to families about when I have meet and greet calls now is, a lot of people like to ask about like, how do you advocate as a Dula? And what's, how do you do that? And something that I talk about now that's so important to me is kind of the time that I'm able to spend with families prenatally and like really, I view that and that time and that education as advocacy, just as much as it is in the birth space, obviously, you know, a different, different type, but being able to, you know, make time for one-off chats with families when, you know, they have a question come up about something that their provider said, or just, you know, what are my different options now that I'm 41 weeks and two days or those kinds of things. So like really being able to spend quality time with families and like give them that individualized care that we talk about as Dulas, that's so important. I really realized that, you know, with, you know, four to five families a month, that didn't feel possible for me. I know a lot of Dulas do that and it works really well, or they're able to swing it and still provide awesome care. But for me and with, again, you know, having little kids and being in the life stage that I was, it, yeah, I was very quickly was like, you know, I think, I think I'm a two to three, two to three families per month kind of Dula.

  Kaely Harrod 11:49

  Yeah, I love that because I think, again, like very relatable to be like, yeah, I was doing it like this. And then I was like, I can't keep going like this, right? Like that's super, super common.

  I also think one of the reasons that I asked Megan to be on as a podcast guest, because I have I've done podcast guesting with many people I've coached, but not everyone. Right. And it's not because the others wouldn't have been great guests like everybody would be. But part of what I think is unique about you is that you also have had a few different times in our six months together where you're kind of like, I think this is the plan. And then our coaching was actually like that should maybe not be the plan. Right. Yeah. And and again, like the receptiveness to that and the ability to be like, OK, actually, like that's part of why I have you is to be like, should this be my plan? And if it should be, how do I do it? But also, if it shouldn't be, I don't want to pour six months of work into this if it actually isn't going to be what I'm thinking it's going to be. And I think that speaks so much to that like outside guidance piece. So I'm I'm I'm leading up to a question, which is what did you think you needed coaching support for when we first started together? What was kind of your in your vision of what coaching would be like in that first bit of coaching when we began?

  Megan Martin 13:18

  Yeah. Okay. So this is a little bit, a little bit twofold. So the first thing I think is what, um, what I thought, what I thought I needed and then what I really, what I really did need it and where, like where it actually matched. I'm going to say that first because, um, I, yeah, it brings me back to like the, again, the thing that I thought I needed, um, was help focusing. Like I, I think I, um, I have, I, I have a lot of, I have a lot of ideas. Um, but I am somebody who as I, I'm, I learned about myself more and more. I am somebody who I don't, I love an idea, but then I don't love always like the process of putting the idea in place like that, like having a big ball of mess and like unmessing it is not my, um, not not a, just not something I love to, I love to do. I'm usually like, I'm like, once I had, once there is a good process, um, then I'm like, okay, yeah, I can, I can chug along and get stuff done. Um, so I knew I needed help focusing.

  Um, and I, that is like, that's definitely the thing that I have loved most about our time together is that, um, I think we talked about having squirrel energy at one point in time. Yes. And that is the thing that like, I think even, even six months in, I will still bring some squirrel energy to our calls and you are like, love it. Yes. Great. Let's take 57 steps back and work on, work on untangling, untangling that a little bit. Like, I said mess earlier, but it's not a mess, right? It's just like a big,

  Kaely Harrod 15:12

  of yarn.

  Megan Martin 15:13

  A big ball of yarn, a big ball of this yarny idea that just needs to be sorted out and I am again like that taking the steps back and looking at the smaller things is something that like having somebody else help you with that is has been so so valuable. I know I'm kind of like what am I going to do with all my squirrel energy?

  Like what do I do with it now? But would it be helpful for me to like back up and talk a little bit about what my kind of initial idea it was and or what I came what I came to coaching with and how we've pivoted a little bit.

  Kaely Harrod 15:52

  bit. If that, yeah, that's fine. If that's what, yeah, that's kind of what I was thinking. I also love like what you're, what you're describing is perfect because it is like, I think in business, for one, when we lack guidance, which most of us do as do us, right? We do sort of piece together our own thoughts and naturally we like either completely defeat ourselves or like amp ourselves up, right?

  Like we're like, that's an amazing thought. Like, my gosh, you are killing it. What a great idea. And then we do need someone else to either be like, actually, that sounds real complicated. Like have you considered, you know, maybe we start with this thing that you already have. But also, I think we, we can just as easily keep ourselves from doing something that we actually are ready to do. Yeah. And, and so I do think I want you to share a little bit about like the group that you were kind of starting to think about, only because I think what you actually needed in that was better boundaries and how you show up as a doula, right? But, but I want you to dive into it a little. So yes.

  Megan Martin 17:06

  Yeah. So when I, when I initially applied for your, um, your, your free coaching spot, um, my initial idea was I really just, I was looking, just looking, I mean, I was coming off that 37 birth year, um, and was like, okay, that just isn't, that's not sustainable. Um, and, and my background prior to doula work was working in corporate marketing. So working with just lots of teams to get, I mean, sometimes, sometimes too many people to get one thing done, honestly. Um, but very used to just like teamwork, um, having other people to bounce ideas off of, so coming into doula work and being just really a solo business owner, trying to figure it out on my own, um, was just a really big, I think mindset shift. Um, and just tricky, a tricky thing to do for me.

  Um, and so I think again, and then having, having kind of pushed myself a little bit in that first year and attending, um, attending a lot of different births and learning a lot, but kind of already feeling a little bit of that, um, just that, that burnout that is so common with doulas. Um, I knew, I knew I really wanted to do, I wanted to work differently in my, in my next year. Um, and so one of the ideas that I had had and had been talking to some other, other doulas about was is, you know, options of working together as doulas. Um, working in some sort of either collaborative or collective or just partnership model. Um, and so I was really had that, that big idea and it's still something I think about. I'm not, I haven't, I haven't shelved it completely. Um, I think because I do just, I love my doula friends and I would love to work with them more, but I think to your point, what then we, we started to talk about and what I realized along the way, I think with more conversations with these, with these doulas, more conversations with you, Kaylee, just more thought was that it, you know, we, we, that's, I'm just making sounds with my mouth, we really like, we all aligned our values. We all love each other very much. Um, but we have different, um, kind of different needs as doulas. Some of us were wanting, you know, I was wanting to make this more of a full time job for myself, other, other doulas were just having babies and needed a more low key schedule. And it just wasn't, we, we kind of weren't matched up in that way, even though we, you know, again, we all felt very matched up in other ways. And yeah, I think with more conversations and really looking at different ways of, uh, setting up my doula packages, it really was a more like, I can, I can build a more sustainable business on my own first, I just buy, like you said, setting, setting some boundaries with how I work, optimizing a few different things, um, so that I'm spending less time on some of the admin stuff. Um, and I can name some specific examples of those things too. Um, but yeah, really realizing that, you know, even if my goal still is someday to build something that's bigger than just me as a solo doula, like having the, um, foundation and having those sustainable doula business practices already set for myself is like,

  Megan Martin 20:56

  that's, that's such a good, like having that good foundation is a better place to start than, you know, trying to build this thing and then figure it out along the way. Um, and I can pause, but I'm also happy to name some of those like specific things that, that we worked on and have made, have made this feel so much more sustainable, just even as a solo.

  Kaely Harrod 21:23

  Yeah, I think we, I do want you to do that, but I, but I think too, I want to just like take a second to acknowledge too, that like so frequently as doulas, because we are usually under trained and under experienced in the business side of it, we are reactionary, right? And so like some ways in some in a good way, right? Where like you're saying like, you're like, I can't attend a birth for that amount of money ever again. So my price is going up tonight before I go to bed, right?

  But also I think even in like one thing I remember about the collaborative like conversations is like, it's apparent that you all are aligned in how you want to support clients and what you believe about birth work, like that matters so much and also like your reason for wanting to do this feels a little reactionary in the sense that you're like, I can't do what I did last year. It's like, yes, I agree. You can't do what you did last year. And also like, I don't know that this is going to actually alleviate that issue. Right. And so in some ways we are sort of like, I'll throw this at it, you know, it's like, well, what if that just causes a new set of issues and like, I, that's a lovely community that you have. So we also don't want to mess with it, right? Like if it's not going to be lovely, if it's going to mess up the community that's already there, we really don't want to do that. And so like the sustainability piece, that's like, okay, well, let's imagine that like your business as an individual doula is going to work smoother and be easier to function with some sustainability practices, which I do want you to talk a bit about. And then imagine that if you have those going and a year from now or two years from now, the collective feels more aligned. Like that person that wanted to have a baby has a toddler and maybe can attend more births, right? Like there's, this is a fluid situation, right? But then you already are coming being like, Hey guys, I have these systems in place that we can all implement. We can all utilize as a collective and it's something that's going to benefit you with or without that goal coming to fruition in the future, if that makes sense. Yeah. So I do want you to take a second to talk about like for you, what are kind of the most significant, like, cause I think again, these are things that we kind of like, we're always like, Oh, what a, what a small thing that you did that shift, but they're huge, right? Like, and I mean, this has been my like soapbox that I live on for the last little bit, because I'm like, no, my whole life fell apart for the first four months of the year. And my business did not because I had those systems in place, right? And the systems that felt like kind of mundane and ridiculous actually held shit together. And that's why we have them. And so I would love to hear like, what are the most impactful ones for you and kind of what have you seen in terms of your business that has actually felt very like relieved or like a little bit more streamlined, a little bit easier because of those.

  Megan Martin 24:34

  Okay. I'm in my head. I'm like mentally trying to prioritize and be like, what? Cause I, I feel like we have so many at this point, but I think number one is price.

  That is really this work, no matter all the other systems that you put in place is not sustainable if you are not earning a live a living wage.

  Kaely Harrod 24:55

  Just say that one more time for the people in the back.

  Megan Martin 25:00

  It's such a, I know it's such a personal thing and everybody has different reasons for doing this work. And so it's, you know, again, yeah, it's, it's, it's personal and you all have, everybody has to figure out what, what works for them, but it is not sustainable.

  Um, but if you're not earning a living wage, it just, it's not. And it, I think it has to be, I don't know if this is actual data. I don't know if this is evidence-based Kaylee, but I feel like with the doula, um, doula burnout near, or what is it? Two years is the average. Like I really have to bet that that is around not having, not having a little sustainable wage.

  Kaely Harrod 25:45

  I mean, it's like 18 months and I think it is like, I think it's about the fact that we don't pay ourselves enough to compensate for the fact that we lose so much sleep and time with our people, you know, yeah, like that has to be, I mean, as silly as it is to be like, we need to be able to afford self care around that. But that's actually true, you know.

  Megan Martin 26:07

  actually true. It's actually true.

  Um, and being able to, you know, with, with having a more sustainable, um, uh, more sustainable price, it, it also then allows you to take that time off. Like I think that having, I think we're both somebody, we're both doulas who try to take a little bit of time off call in the summer. And that like last summer, I had, um, I can't even remember at least, at least four to six weeks of off call time. And again, after that busy year, that was so, um, it just so needed. And I think it just contributes to, um, the, that burnout is if you're not paying yourself enough to take that time off, like truly off call. Um, that's, it's just going to contribute to that, that burnout rate.

  Kaely Harrod 26:58

  Okay, so raising your rates was your first one. Right, yes.

  Megan Martin 27:01

  raising my rates and then this is I mean this is one of those ones that I know seems silly but is honestly has saved me so much time and maybe this is one where people are like oh yeah like that the Google templates I did not know that Gmail there were templates in Gmail so when we just like looked at some of my client emails and looked at that you were like oh Gmail has templates like you don't have to have I do use honey book for as a CRM and I'm sure I could automate and like do more emails through them but I kind of like having my emails in Gmail so just being able to have some of those templates specifically for a welcome email and like a thank you and please leave me a review email just having those templates built and like you know still easily personalizing them to each family but having those there and built has made that part of like onboarding and I don't know is offboarding is that a word but like yes it is okay onboarding and offboarding those parts of the process it has saved me so much time to just have those there and be able to use those and then on the note of the template and the welcome email one of the boundaries that you helped me put in place was having like being able to in that email kind of lay out some of those like initial initial boundaries for families right away so one of the things that I that I say to families in my welcome email is you know very nicely and like I add smiley faces and exclamation points in my emails because that's who I am but say like you know when when I'm not on call for you you know in in your on call window please expect 24 to 48 hours for a text back like if it's not urgent and if it is urgent please call me or you know your provider obviously but having that having that called out right away has given me like that's something that used to give me some anxiety I would feel like oh my gosh it's you know Sunday at 10 a.m. I just got a text from a client I need to respond right away and I was like I'm not on call for you right now I this and this isn't an urgent issue I can absolutely wait 24 hours and text you back Monday at 10 a.m. so just having again having that in a template and not having to repeat it or reword it every time but just lay it out right away and just set that set that boundary has just been something that again makes this work feel so sustainable because or so much more sustainable because I feel better about being able to if I'm off call set my phone down and not not feel like I have to get back to everybody so quickly so it was kind of a two-for-one

  Kaely Harrod 29:56

  Yeah, I love that.

  The other thing I remember that I had forgotten about was that you, when we first started working together, and I'm laughing just because I'm remembering this. I remember being like, so how many times do you see your clients in your package? And you were like, it depends. And I was like, what do you mean? I was like, is it different every time? Like, how do you choose? What do you mean? Don't decide.

  Megan Martin 30:24

  Yes, I know, truly who decides. And that, okay, that was my third thing. So I'm glad that you said that because that was my third thing is yes, having that conversation.

  So the way that I used to, the way that I used to talk to clients about prenatal visits was I would say I meet with most families two to three times, but you know, I'm very flexible. I really want to be the support that you need. Um, so it's, you know, if you need more, you, we can meet more. If not, that's fine. Um, it was very, very wishy washy. And I, the thing that really, um, that you said that helped me kind of like flip that for me, like a mindset shift was that, um, putting, putting that on the client to decide is actually really not that helpful for them. Like then they're giving that they're having to think about it. They're having to decide there. Um, I think my, my desire to be flexible for my families, um, was probably not best served in like, we just, we just meet however many times, however many times you want. Like that's, that's really not doing them that it's it's making that a little harder for them to like decide what they really need versus me just saying, you know, we meet two times. Um, this is, you know, this is what we'll talk about. Obviously we save time for whatever is on your mind. You know, obviously just getting to know each other is very important. Um, but like, I'll have a plan for what we, what we chat about our two times. And then obviously I'm available, um, you know, phone calls, texts, whatever you need, virtually, you know, until, until it's time to have your baby.

  Kaely Harrod 32:19

  Yeah. I mean, I think I remember when we chatted about this, I mean, at first, and I should probably say, like, I have moments like this with my own coach all the time, right? Like, the last week's episode was all about, like, how it took me a decade to do, to do branding photos. And my coach and I had a conversation recently and I was like, it's been a crazy year. I haven't, like, done my podcast as much. I haven't launched, like, a new cohort of coaching, you know, and she was like, just update your brand photos. And I was like, I don't have, I don't know how many. And she, she was like, I'm sorry, what? And so she, like, paused. She, like, put her hands over her eyes. She put them down, took a deep breath, and she was like, what do you mean you don't have a brand? And I was like, I mean, I just have never, and she was like, okay, so that's your only homework, you know?

  But, but I think this is, it's a perfect example of, like, it's just how I've been doing it. And, like, because I just have, like, it's more of an interruption for me to tell myself I need to pause and do that thing differently than to just keep plugging along in the way that I've been plugging along without someone being like, you know, there's an easier way, right? Like, there's, do you think this is helpful to you? Like, what do you think your people are getting from that, you know? Where, like, I remember at some point a client asked me, and this is sort of the moment, I think, when I was kind of like, oh, yeah, I need to just tell you what you need. Because she was like, I see you have these different packages. I don't know, like, what, what package should I buy? And I'm like, oh, this one, because I, at the time I had three or four, and it was like, the smallest one was ridiculously too small, right? Like, it was like, we need to meet more than once. This is not helpful. Don't pick this one, you know? The middle one was actually what I do now, which is, like, I'm on call for you, and you, you know, I'm at your birth as long as you want. We meet twice, one is in person, one is virtual, like, it was that. And then the bigger ones were like, $1,000 more, and like, ridiculous, like, things that did not need, I don't even remember, you know, but I was like, I don't know, two, two postpartum visits instead of one, and like, six printed, it was just like, so, so stupid. But she was just like, well, which one is the best? And I was like, oh, easy, the second one. Yeah, that's the one you want. But I was like, then why do I even have another three? Like, you know, but she's like, I don't, like, just tell me how to work with you, like, tell me what, what we actually need to do, because I don't want to just buy the cheapest version. But I also don't want to, like, spend money that's not needed. And so the clarity is there for you, but also for them, right? And they don't have the space to then come back and be like, hey, I thought we were having a third or fourth.

  Kaely Harrod 35:05

  You did say you sometimes do more depending on what someone needs. And I think I need to see you five times.

  And you're just like, wait a second. It's like, but technically you didn't tell me it was only two.

  Megan Martin 35:16

  Exactly. I literally used to say at least twice, but whatever you need.

  Kaely Harrod 35:22

  A little Midwestern, but you know it's very Minnesota well and I.

  Megan Martin 35:26

  I think it's just so like part of that. Not that in initial doula trainings you hear, yeah, do as many prenatal as they need. But just that belief that as doulas, we have to be, oh, something's beeping. Oh, it's my coffee maker. Sorry about that. We can't hear it, so you're fine. Excellent, then I just interrupt myself for no reason. But just that belief that we need to be just so flexible and whatever anybody needs from us. And not that that's inherently wrong, but it also has to work for us.

  If you're a doula and what works best for you and works best for the families that you serve is for prenatals and you've built it out in a sustainable way and it's working for you. And it's like, there's no right or wrong way to do it, but I think it's just that like, that initial belief, at least for me, as a new doula of that, like I just need to be whatever these families need. But not really having clarity on what that was and also taking myself out of the equation. Again, I think that just contributes to that burnout because we tend to take ourselves out of the equation and think about what actually works best for me and this price point that I want to be at, so.

  Kaely Harrod 36:52

  I mean, I think the other piece of it, and this is where, I mean, I'm from the Midwest and you're like North Midwest. And so there is a bit of like people-pleasy, right? But I think, I mean, I am growing in that and you are also growing in that, which is helpful. But I think too, like, it's less about someone, like you feeling like you have to do whatever they want or need and more that like, it's just very straightforward. Like if you sign your kid up for a camp, you want to know like, do we meet on Tuesdays or Thursdays? Like I don't want to decide if I want both or neither. Like if you're like, I don't know, we can, if that works for you, it's like, no, that's actually so unhelpful. Like when is the camp? Like just, is it on Tuesday from two to four? Okay, great. Then is it every week or every other week? Like, just tell me what I'm doing, you know?

  And I think clients want that too. Like they have a whole life and they're getting ready for a whole baby. And so it's like, they don't want to be like, oh, I have to remember to reach out to you to say like, hey, maybe I do one another meeting. There is this other thing I have. But like, if you're saying like, hey, we're going to meet these two times, here are the links, go ahead and book them. That's like, then you've kind of like checked the box of using me, how you need to use me. And then like, yeah, I'll see you when you have your baby. But you do have access to me if something pops up, you do have, you know, you can ask me questions, et cetera. But also like, then I don't feel like maybe you feel like I'm not doing something. I know I sent you all this stuff to do your part and you're doing your part and I'm doing my part and we're good, right? Yeah, yeah. So there isn't like a mismatch in expectation there, which if there is kind of like fluid, kind of like loosey goosey edges to what's included, then there is always the thought of like, maybe they wanted different, maybe they wanted more, maybe. And it's just like emotionally and mentally so wildly unhelpful, you know.

  Megan Martin 38:58

  Yeah, it's adding to their mental load too, yep.

  Kaely Harrod 39:01

  Exactly. Yeah. Did you have more, um, on your list of things that you're, that like have helped streamline or should we? Yes. I'll do one.

  Megan Martin 39:09

  I'll do one quick one. No, you're great. It is the having a, and I think there's different ways to do this, but just having, I used to get an inquiry and then respond. I did have kind of my own template for it, but then I would spend time, so I wasn't starting from scratch every single inquiry, but I would then spend time. I'd pull up my calendar and put in a few different dates, and then hopefully one of them would work for them to do our meet and greet call. I knew that that was clunky and one of my least favorite things to do, but just, again, wasn't taking the time or just not having the push to do it differently.

  I just continued to do it, and I feel like that was maybe one of the other first things we did. You were like, please just have a scheduling. Please, please just send out a link for people to book time with you. That has been huge. Now when somebody goes to my website, they're able to pick the time that they want to meet. They book it. They fill out my inquiry form, so I have that information, and I send an automated email that says, thanks so much for booking. I can't wait to talk to you, and that's it. I don't touch, unless I get an inquiry that maybe is for a time that I'll be out of town and I want to let them know before we meet that that's the case. But other than that, when I get inquiries now, I don't touch it until I talk to them, and that is just a huge, huge time saver.

  Kaely Harrod 40:55

  I mean, again, going back to like ways that this, we can make this business more sustainable, right? Like my mindset is like, what are things that if you forget about them, they don't happen and they're actually huge money-making things in your business. If someone sends you an email like, Hey, I'd love to chat. And then you miss it. You just, you miss the whole client, you know, like that's a big deal. And it sucks for them too. Like I can't tell you the number of people who reach out to me who are like, I reached out to probably five doulas at once, and I literally didn't hear back from half of them and I'm like, that's not okay guys. Like just the very basic, like, Hey, I want to have a conversation about hiring you, how is that not one of your most important systems, you know?

  Yeah. And it seems so silly, but it's also like, no, it, it actually just then works. Like as a, as a client, I want to be able to just book a call with you. I don't want to be like, let me send you an email and see if you email me back and wait for an email to come back. Like if I'm looking at your stuff right now, and I want to talk to you, I want to book it right now. Yeah. And so it's also keeping me kind of keeping that momentum going. But on top of that, like we're just missing money all the time. When we have systems that are reliant on us that are, are, are just inherently going to have people fall through the cracks, you know? Yeah. So, so I want to chat a little bit because I think, um, I think that in business stuff, we like to talk about return on investment, right? And so how this worked for Megan is Megan won the free spot last year. And then, um, we did three months together and then she decided to extend it to another three months. And so she bought like a coaching package, right? Um, and it was, it's been glorious, I think personally. We're such a great team. Um, we're both a little squirrely to begin with. And then we focus and we get shit done. Um, that's our rhythm. That's exactly, that is how, that's how we work our calls out. Um, but I think one thing that, that sometimes it's easy to, to like sort of expect out of something like a business investment is a financial return. Right. And on the one hand, I think, I mean, there's lots of other things to measure beyond just like, how much money have you made since you started working with me? And I mean, that's sometimes very clear, right? But also I think a bigger thing is like, you went through a little bit of a lull of people out and you didn't throw it all away or burn it all down or started all over, and so I would love to hear like, it's okay if you're like, it was actually really unhelpful to have you during that time. But I would love to hear like, what did that look like for you? Like, what did it look like for you to be like, I just bought this coaching package and then actually like less people are hiring me and how did, was it still helpful or not to have, to have a coach, like helping you kind of navigate through a little bit of a lull, which is, you know, a normal part of business. Yeah.

  Megan Martin 44:13

  Well, I think first, it was so helpful to A, just have you as somebody with, so spoiler alert, it was still helpful, to have somebody that A could just say like, these lulls are part of doula business. Like this is, there's only so much that we can control and do, and sometimes there just are lulls for whatever reasons, but then having, kind of again, twofold, having you help me dig into what could be some of the things, what are some of those things that I can, I could control, like is, you know, I have a lull in inquiries, so great time to spend some time networking with other doulas, see if there's opportunities for throwing myself out as a backup option to my doula networks, to, you know, in my close doula network and then a wider doula network. So having somebody, you know, A, just normalize that some, yeah, this is kind of part of it, especially as a new doula, and then digging into what are some of the ways to use this time wisely was so helpful.

  And, you know, obviously like reaching out to networks and networking more, but then, you know, we dug into like, okay, something that I would love, a part of my business that I would love to build is my, is the lactation support and education. And so then again, being able to say, okay, I have this little bit of a lull in birth clients. So this is a great time to like really build the foundation of that lactation business and, you know, looking into, again, just the, building that foundation in blog posts, in building out, you helped me build my lactation package and working through, you know, how that could work with birth, my birth package and all of that. So I think that was, I mean, it was still, maybe honestly it was more kind of helpful to have that lull while during coaching, during our coaching, just because I was then able to focus on some of those foundation building things which is so important to me.

  Kaely Harrod 46:42

  Yeah, I mean, I love also like I, I think for me, right? I mean, for one, I appreciate that it was still helpful to you. I did. I did know that in the sense that you've already told me that. But also, I think the result of that, that coaching isn't always going to be like then I made this much more money.

  Right. And it's more like, no, now you have better ways to make money. And also, like you have had people already book that lactation package and you have had people book at your new rates. And like those are incrementally things that do lead to a business that has a wider foundation in terms of streams of income. Right. And part of that, I think, I think in coaching, sometimes folks are like, I would like to be a whole like childbirth educator. And I want this class to be like up and running in the next three months. And I'm like, OK, talk to me about your networks in the area. Like, do you coach and do you like currently teach anything? Do you have any experience teaching? You know, and and I'm like sort of like kindly trying to get to the point of like, is this actually a feasible three month goal for you? And I had someone ask, I think it was during the last giveaway time. Like, have you had anyone not meet their goals? And I'm like, my answer to that is no, because we adjust your goals. Right. Like, like, yes, I've had people who come and are like, I'd like an entire agency. And I'm like, in 90 days, like, tell me about your client load. Like, you know, I'm like, I have questions before I have answers for you. Yeah. But also, I think then if we're able to say like, OK, we took I mean, you and I took like probably two or three coaching calls to be like, here's how we're going to figure out if this collective is a now thing. Yeah. Yeah. And at the end of that time, we're like, OK, it's not a now thing to do. It's a it's a future thing, maybe. Right. Like, it's still we could maybe do this. But then what else are we focusing on? Like, we didn't spend 90 days figuring out the collective wasn't the right goal right now. We pivoted and we're like, well, what do you currently hate in your business that we could streamline? What about your business makes you feel like you need people to be on call with you? Yeah. How do we give you some of that buffer while this should not be your 90 day goal? And yes, that means if we just say like, what did Megan put on the form as her 90 day goal? Did she reach that goal? No, she didn't. She threw that goal away about three weeks in. Also, well, not throw it away, but like, you know, packed it away in the best for future for the next holiday season when she gets it back out. Right. But I think I think that like. For me, as a doula who's been in this game now for a while, I'm like, those the things that you're building now, the things that you're setting up for yourself now, even the ability to be like, hey, where are these inquiries coming from?

  Kaely Harrod 49:46

  And what's the turnaround? Like, how many of the people who who book from doula match, for instance, actually hire me like we just did that recently. It's like that information, the ability to gather that information will serve you forever, you know? And so if I'm not in your corner, the next time you have a lull, you can be like, all right, I'm going to channel a little bit of Kaylee, like where are my inquiries coming from? Am I still like utilizing the same? Because it's not going to be the same, right? It's not going to be still doula matches your number one place and everyone who comes from there hires you. It's going to change with time and it'll be easier in some ways and harder in other ways to see, like, then what what do I do as a response to this new and different portion of my business, right?

  This new and different chapter, if that makes sense. But but it's like the really unsexy parts that actually are the foundation of that sustainability, you know, which I mean, like, I think it's been really lovely to watch you. I mean, your whole mindset and like you're just like, literally give me any homework and I will do it, you know, like, yes, tell me what to do. And by next week, it will be done, you know, but also I think that has that has served you well in the fact that you're able and willing to be like, yeah, OK, let's let's try it out. Like, let's change that thing and see how it goes and see what happens. Let's try out lactation in the package. Let's try out lactation by itself and see which one works. We have to naturally give it time to see if it will work. But if we never build that package, we can't even start that time. You know what I mean? And I think doulas so often want something to work right now, which I get. Like, I also want that in life in general, you know. but the ability to be like this inquiry form being changed is not gonna magically get me more inquiries tomorrow. What it is gonna do is make my inquiries easier to manage when they do pick up again, because they will pick up again.

  And when that happens, I'm not gonna be sending individual freaking emails to every single person that emails me, you know? Yeah. And when you're getting inquiries every day, you cannot sustain emailing them back. You know, like that's something like for me, I'm like, I get way too many inquiries to email them anything, like I need them to book me to be able to look over their questions and be like, nope, I can't work with you. You're due at the wrong time. I'm gonna be out of town. I'm already full and just send them a quick email. Like, hey, I had to cancel our meeting. I'm so sorry, I'm already booked. I hope you find a doula. You know, like that's it. So it takes 10 seconds of my time and they're usually booking like a few days out. So I have like 48 to 72 hours to respond to them. You know what I mean?

  Megan Martin 52:29

  I think one of the things that sometimes, at least I was worried about with automating things and having templates and such, is that like, oh my gosh, it doesn't feel personal. It doesn't feel personal.

  And it's like, that's not what's on. No. They'll meet you and be like, okay, yeah, no, obviously you're not a robot. That's not what's on potential clients' minds. I don't mind. No.

  Kaely Harrod 52:54

  Well, and I mean, we live in a day and age where we book stuff online and we get a confirmation email. No one thinks a person... It's my favorite way to book things. Yeah. I mean, truly. And never have I gotten a confirmation email and assumed like, Tim is up at 11 PM at Target sending me an order confirmation like, thank you so much for ordering Kaylee. You're going to love this rug. Like no, it's an automated email because it just tells me like, Hey, your order went through, it worked, and then we will send you another email when it's on its way, right? Like that's, that's actually what our expectation is.

  And so if someone is like, Hey, like I emailed you and then how long do I wait to hear back? Like how do I know it didn't work? At what point do I forget about you because I don't actually know what to expect? Where if someone books and immediately they say like, Hey, thank you so much for booking. Like they get an automated message. Thank you so much for booking. I'm excited to talk to you and see if I'm a good fit for your team. Yeah. When are we, when are you going to hear from me again at our meeting that you booked? Yeah. Like that's, I mean, it's in both of our calendars now, you know, like that.

  Megan Martin 54:04

  clarity again, right? It's the clarity that, um, like they, they, we all want. Yes.

  Kaely Harrod 54:12

  Exactly. Yeah. And it's like if I am obsessed with finding a doula at 11 p.m. on a Friday, I want to book a call with you. Yeah. At that moment. And no, I don't expect to call that night, but I don't want to send you an email and not have any idea when you're going to get back to me. Right. You know, like in my brain, that task is not done.

  Yes. Yeah. And we want to be like, check, I booked four calls with four doulas. Good and good. Like next week I'm going to talk to them all and figure out by the end of the week, who's my, like that's, that's completion, right? Like that's like actually giving some satisfaction to folks who are trying to do a step towards having the support that they need. You know, so. Exactly. Okay. So we could chat forever because it's us. That's what we do. That's what we do. Exactly. But I think I want to kind of wrap us up so that we don't have the longest ever podcast episode. And also, um, I would love to end by hearing like, what is something that you feel like will kind of guide you longer term from our coaching? And maybe it is like those automations are a game changer, you know, but also just like whatever it is that you feel like, no, no, that thing is going to take me through some more years of being a doula and because it just is different for everybody, you know? Yeah.

  Megan Martin 55:34

  I mean, I, this is the first thing that comes to my mind because it's, I was just thinking about it as kind of throughout this, um, the ways, the ways that my business has changed, um, in the last six ish months is just, I, I think I just also feel having, having these systems in place feeling, um, that I, that I have a more sustainable price point and having just more clarity in the way, in the way that I work, um, on like the business side of, of dueling, um, it has just made me feel, I think so much more confident in like this is, I, I am confident in this price. I am confident in this package and again, in a, in a like I'm, I'll change it as I need to change it.

  But I'll change it if it doesn't, when it doesn't work or as I want to add, add things or take away things or whatever, but not in a, you know, things are set way, but just in a, I feel, I just feel so much more confident in, in the way that I run my doula business now. Um, and I think that, that honestly is the thing that I will take with me and just, I think that the confidence to pivot when I want to pivot and make, make the decisions because it's my business. Um, so.

  Kaely Harrod 56:59

  I love that so much. One of my favorite mantras is like, if you are going to work for yourself, you need to be the best boss you've ever worked for.

  Megan Martin 57:08

  I know I've heard you say that and I, I say it to myself sometimes of like, agreed to something where I'm like, I am not being a good boss to myself. Yeah. Like, what did I do? Why did I say yes to this?

  Kaely Harrod 57:22

  And I think that like the confidence to run your business however you'd like is so huge because actually it is yours, right? And like you can do with it what you'd like. Like you can add things, you can take things away, you can change your package, you can change your radius of birth attendant, right? Like you can do so many things and some of them you'll do them and you'll undo them because they didn't actually work, right? Or you didn't actually like them.

  But even that you're allowed to do like I today was chatting with my one of my dearest friends who is a business co or is a business small business owner as well. And she was like, I think I want to change how I do my sleep program. Like I want to do it this way instead of that way. And part of what we talked about is like, yeah, I'm going to announce this as like a summertime change because then in the fall, if I'm like, actually, never mind, scratch that. It's an easy way for me to be like, just kidding. It's all again. Yeah, it was a summertime thing. And it like I don't need to be like, well, that was a mistake. You know, I can just be like, now it's fall and we're going to do it different.

  Right. And the same the same with our like the way that we show up for our people. Like the most important thing is your people who've hired you to support them in their baby making and baby having right. You show up for them. Like that's what you need to consistently do. You can't have people hire you and then not be their doula. That's fraud. Right. But you can choose like, I'm only going to do this kind of package. Now I'm going to pivot to that kind of package and that ability to be fluid and to also kind of respond to our own changing lives and chapters is how we have sustainability.

  Right. Like it's not it's not the like put your head down and never give up. Like that's not sustainability. That's not how we avoid burnout. That's actually a fast track to getting there. Right.

  Megan Martin 59:23

  I was just going to say the thing you're making me think of too, that I didn't say, but it's, and it's also that not needing to run your doula business like everyone else or like what you see, like that's not sustainable is doing it, like doing it like everybody else and not doing it in a way that, so I think that too of that, that permission that I feel like you've given like permission and confidence or whatever it is to just say like, I get to do this in a way that works for me and works for the families that hire me. That's, that is definitely something that I will take.

  Kaely Harrod 59:59

  I will take with me. Yeah, I love that. Okay, so if you are here listening, for one, Megan's information is in the show notes, so you should check out her stuff, she's amazing. And then for two, this spot that Megan started with me in is open for applications until Friday. So this podcast episode comes out on Wednesday, just kidding, the applications are open until Sunday, not Friday.

  Because, you know, what day even is it? The 24th of May, 11, 59 p.m. is when applications close. So there is a link to applications in the show notes. If you listened last week, I did warn you that you should have joined the newsletter so that you would get it faster, but that's okay. We're not shaming people, you just apply today if you haven't gotten it yet. And then I will be kind of individually reaching out to folks as they apply to kind of let them know, you know, did you make it into sort of like the next round of like having a chat with me? And then like, you know, like those kinds of, that kind of follow up will be part of it. And all of this is to start the same kind of 90 day coaching that Megan has now done two rounds of in July. So Megan just wrapped up when this episode is coming out. And I'll be opening up a handful of new spots for summertime to kind of get you going into the second half of the year. And like getting your Q3 and Q4 kind of ducks in a row. And then also there will be some spots that are available for people to sign up at full price as well, of course. But that giveaway is a way for you to work with me for the first 90 days, at least for free. And one spot will be given away. And so historically, I've always kind of like given a discount to number two and three or something like that because that's how I function. But there is one free giveaway spot only and the applications are 10 days. So it's not like crazy, crazy long. So you have until Sunday. So Megan, thank you so much for taking the time to do this podcast and for enduring the headache of tech things that we dealt with before we got on. And your dog didn't even interrupt us. It's been successful. I know my teenagers are nowhere to be found. We've had just a killer episode time. It's so well. All right, everyone else, I will see you in the next episode and I want you to take a minute to apply so you can start some coaching as well.

Apply for the May Giveaway of Private Doula Business Coaching! Applications close on Sunday May 24th at 11:59pm EST. https://form.jotform.com/261378464702158

This episode features a conversation between doula business coach Kaely Harrod and her coaching client Megan Martin, a birth doula and lactation educator based in the Minneapolis area. As they wrap up their six-month coaching relationship, Megan shares her doula journey—from taking her training in January 2024 to attending 37 births in her first year. They discuss the challenges of pricing, the importance of sustainable pacing, and how Megan learned to prioritize quality prenatal care while balancing family life with two young children. This candid conversation offers valuable insights for new and experienced doulas alike about building a business that truly works for your life.

Quote from Megan:

“I think one of the things that sometimes, at least I was worried about with automating things and having templates and such, is that like, oh my gosh, it doesn't feel personal. And it's like, that's not what's on potential clients' minds. We live in a day and age where we book stuff online and we get a confirmation email. No one thinks a person is up at 11 PM at Target sending them an order confirmation. It's an automated email because it just tells me like, Hey, your order went through, it worked, and then we will send you another email when it's on its way. That's actually what our expectation is. If someone is obsessed with finding a doula at 11 p.m. on a Friday, they want to book a call with you at that moment. They don't want to send you an email and not have any idea when you're going to get back to them." 

Meet Megan:

Hi there! I’m Megan (she/her), a birth doula and lactation educator supporting families throughout the Twin Cities in Minnesota. I'm also a mom of two and like a lot of doulas, my own births completely changed the direction of my life and led me into this wonderful world of birth. My work is centered around evidence-based, judgment-free support that helps families feel informed, grounded and connected to their own intuition throughout pregnancy, birth and postpartum. I support a wide range of birth experiences and love having honest conversations about the nuance of birthwork, advocacy and caring for families in ways that feel individualized and sustainable.

https://www.instagram.com/meganmartinbirth/

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Doula Tips and Tits is produced by Kaely Harrod of Harrod Doula Services

It is sponsored by The Doula Biz Blueprint Self-Paced Class for Doulas Launching Successful and Sustainable Businesses! 

Music by Madirfan: Hidden Place on Pixabay