How to Build a Doula Biz That Actually Pays You Back with Lisa Vee

• Transcript

  Kaely Harrod 00:04

  Welcome to Dula Tips and Tits, the podcast where we cut through the noise and get real about what it takes to build a sustainable doula business. I'm Kaylee Harrod. I've been a doula informally for 14 years and full time for seven. Around here, we don't sugarcoat stuff. We talk autonomy, owning your worth, creating a business that works for you. No fluff, no burnout, just the honest truth on how to be your own best boss.

  Let's get into today's episode. Hello, and welcome back to Dula Tips and Tits. We have a guest. Finally, it's been such a long time since we've had a guest. Lisa has been here before, but was one of many people who we ended by saying we're going to have to do this again. So finally, we are in fact doing this again, because Lisa's wisdom and magic that you need to hear is just always present and needs to be more a part of your life on this Dula Tips and Tits side. So Lisa is a podcast host herself. Loudmouth Lisa is her podcast. I have gotten to be a guest of hers a few times and it's been wonderful. And so Lisa, I would love for you to say hi and share who you are and what you do in this birth work world.

  Lisa Vee 01:24

  Thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here. I've been looking forward to it. Our conversation are always so juicy.

  I always say that I never meant to be a business coach. I was definitely a doula first. And I think that you and I can totally relate on that level. And like so many other birth workers, my experience, my unmedicated out of hospital birth kind of cracked something wide open in me and it made me so, so passionate about autonomy and helping women find their voices in birth, but also in life. And so I built my doula practice from scratch, took a total hiatus and 360 from the corporate world. And over time booked myself out. And I hit a wall that so many of us hit. And that was like the the reality that passion alone wasn't going to pay my bills. And so I I really started to lean on my background in sales and mixed in, you know, all the doula experience. And I started to create a way of selling that didn't feel gross anymore. It was very heart led and repeatable, but also authentic. And so now I pour my heart into helping other doulas do the same thing and especially stop undercharging and especially stop hiding and build businesses that support them back. And I know that you're all about that, which is why I'm here.

  Kaely Harrod 02:50

  Yes, I love that. I know we, we do share many of our same soapboxes. So that's part of why we enjoy this.

  Um, I love that our first conversation was a lot about like marketing and sales, right? Because it is something that doulas suck at. Like we just generally aren't great at business practices. And I think part of that, it comes from a place of not wanting to be gross, right? Not wanting to be manipulative, not wanting to like be that feeling of like, you said it was going to cost this, but then it actually cost that. Like we all have had that experience and we hate it. And so as a, as a service, we don't want to be the perpetrator of that, you know? So I would love to start with just like, how do you, can you sell and not feel gross, right? Like is there, and I know the answer is yes, but like what, where's your kind of favorite place to start when someone's like, I just hate that. I have to charge money for this and that I'm having to sell anything.

  Lisa Vee 03:54

  Yeah, I love this question, and you're so right about so many things. I joke that my toddler, who's three and a half, is such a good salesman. And the reason for that is because he has not been conditioned to have had gross sales experience. He's not pulling from decades of history being on the buying side, feeling super pressured and icky. And that's what makes him so good.

  You know, and I think that first and foremost, we need to recognize and be aware that we have been conditioned to believe that being good means being selfless, not profitable, especially as heart led birth printers. Right. And then add to that the fact that so many of us choose this work from a place of service, a place of activism, a place of, you know, advocacy and suddenly charging money feels dirty and it feels wrong. And and I think that like you said, sales is often paired with manipulation. And that includes like, I love to say like bro marketing tactics or like sleazy car salesman scripts and pressure tactics tactics and just like a lack of authenticity. But I actually see I see it in a different light. So I love to offer this reframe, which is that sales is in itself advocacy. And if you can look at a doctor in the eye, in the birth room and advocate for your client, you can look at a pregnant mama or a postpartum mama and confidently invite her into working with you. And really, it's just shifting the way that you see it and feel about it and learning a system that feels good in your heart. And I promise you that is possible.

  Kaely Harrod 05:49

  Well, and I think, I mean, there's, the thing that came up for me as you're saying that is first, I love, love, love, love that frame. And also I'm like, yeah, because if you're doing this well, there is space for that. Right. There isn't the same, like, please hire me, please hire me, please hire me. Because you're like, it's okay. If I'm not a good fit for you, there are other people, like there's not scarcity in my work and my clients, right?

  And that only comes when you are learning this and you are charging enough money to not have that, like, I desperately need you to hire me because my family needs groceries. Like that, that piece is absolutely vital to then be able to show up really in your power. Otherwise you're on this like self-fulfilling prophecy wheel. That's like just going to keep you in that gross place, you know.

  Lisa Vee 06:41

  Absolutely. Absolutely.

  And I think that your self worth and what you say to yourself about yourself is directly related to how you feel about sales and that's a really hard truth. But it's it's important to recognize.

  Kaely Harrod 06:56

  Yeah. Well, and I think part of what, part of what I love that you talk about is that like, if you're a business person, you have to like talk about your business and like sell your business, right? Like you can't both own a business and never sell anything. Cause then you're not a business person.

  You're like a volunteer doula, right? Like, which is fine if that's what you want to do, but that's not what you're doing if you do in fact, own a business. And so I think one of the things that I would love to hear from you is what are some big blocks that you see for folks when they're like, okay, but I want to be a doula, I don't really want to be a business owner and how do we sort of get past the like, yeah, but you are actually both. And so you do have to get comfortable with that side of it as well to do this.

  Lisa Vee 07:44

  Totally. I love this this topic because there's so many threads. This opens up the door to so many other conversations that I'm sure we'll get into. And really, that all comes back to being your authentic self, being open about who you are, showing the behind the scenes and the past and your story and not being afraid to share that. And what I love about that is there's nothing more authentic and also easier than just showing up as you. It's the minute that we put that like mask on and that we morph into someone fake or like polished or I don't know, like corporate-y feel type version of yourself. That is when we have a problem selling. That is when we don't get the results that we're looking for.

  I want you to show off your quirks. I want you to lead with your story, your vibe, your energy. That's what people buy. So if we really want to simplify it, good news is all you have to do is be you and show up as you. And you are already intuitive. You are already heart-led. You bring so much to the table. But if I'm telling you that that's what it takes to be good at sales, you can rest assured that you're already good at sales. And I think that this is true in your consultations. This is true in even your visibility. So if we wanted to have a quick conversation about how do I show up on social media? How do I get the word out there without just like talking about myself all the time? Just be who you are and show what that's like, what you're all about. What are your beliefs? That's all you have to do. And the rest will fall into place with a little bit of strategy and intention. But we can really boil it down and simplify it, which is usually when I see clients like take a huge sigh of relief.

  Kaely Harrod 09:45

  Yeah. Yeah. I love that perspective of like, it's already there. Like it's really just you, because I think about like, you know, my friends who I can really be like passionate about, you know, I can, I can be like, this is why I do what I do. Like, because I don't feel like I'm trying to get them to buy something. You know what I mean? Like that. So often that piece is there.

  We just don't have the courage to apply it in the times when we are talking to a perspective client, you know, because we're like, Oh, I know I can talk about this like crazy, but then when I'm selling you something, a piece of me keeps me from going there. Totally. Yeah. What would you say about like, in that clarity, then also how do we address the feeling of like, I could be any doula for any person, because that's a super common mindset that again, kind of goes back to that scarcity, but also keeps us from being super specific in who we are.

  Lisa Vee 10:45

  Yeah, I think that this really comes down to who am I and what are my values and my beliefs and how much can I commit to that? And so I think that when people hear the word commitment associated with sales, they think like consistency. Oh, well, if I show up every day on Instagram, then the sales will start to flow. And I like to boss that myth and say, no, what I want your commitment to look and feel like is that you are committed to sharing who you are and what you believe in.

  And when you do that, you will be calling in the perfect, most aligned clients, not all the clients, because then there's going to be a disconnect. But when you can really commit to the conviction, this is what I believe in. This is my philosophy. This is my approach. You 100% will call in and attract the right mamas. And you're not going to be the right doula for all mothers. And that's okay. And we can own that and honor that. But I can promise you that what is most effective is coming back to the commitment of showing up and saying the thing that maybe other doulas are afraid to say. The commitment to showing up and being open about the way you feel about certain things and your worldview, because there is nothing more trust building than consistency. But consistency in who you are, not the amount of reels that you throw up on the internet in a given week.

  Kaely Harrod 12:25

  Yeah, I love that. Well, what would you say if someone's pushing back and saying, OK, but what if that means a bunch of people say no to me? How do I start to hone in on not only being OK with that, but also using that as a way to know who's right and not right? Does that make sense?

  Yeah.

  Lisa Vee 12:48

  Yeah, and I think that when I hear that question, I can't help but bring up the word rejection. Because usually in my talks with doulas, especially in like a coaching capacity, once we start to peel back the layers and get underneath this question, we start to recognize that it is a fear of rejection.

  So hey, Lisa, what if I charge too much? No one's going to hire me. Or I don't want to come off as greedy. Or if they wanted to hire me, they would just say, yes, I shouldn't have to ask them. But the truth is we are not charging for our heart. We're not putting a price tag on our personal worth. We're charging for our expertise, our experience, our time, our energy, the way that we advocate. And so it's really more of a leadership role. So I think that we need to recognize that when you hear the word no, which is kind of where your question stemmed from, when you hear the word no, it's not a you're not good enough. And there's some depth there. And I always like to dig into this because usually we can tie a lot of those types of things back to the idea of, do you feel confident and worthy on the inside? And if not, is there some work that we need to do? And a lot of what I do within my programs is that super deep inner work.

  Kaely Harrod 14:19

  Yeah. Yeah. Well, and this is where I love like conversations about mindset and like, why is that for you that that's coming up? Like rejection and not wanting to be rejected as most of our, you know, like who wants that? But like, why is it a sticky point for you is very different person to person.

  I agree. How that makes you feel is different person to person, you know. Yeah. And you, oh, go ahead. No, no, go ahead.

  Lisa Vee 14:48

  You said earlier, you said, you know, so many of us enter this work not being super great at the business stuff, not being super business savvy. And so, yeah, let's let's name the fact that so much so many of us came into this work through love and passion.

  And so pricing starts to feel almost like a punishment. Like, like we're making people pay for something that feels like it should be free. But what I want to do is reframe that entirely and say your price. The fact that you are asking for an investment is what gives you sustainability and the freedom and the rest needed to show up. And it's what allows her or the birthing person to step into transformation with real support. So it's important that we're kind of anchoring into our price in what it makes possible on both sides. It's not as simple as saying it's just a transaction. I'm taking something from this person. Not at all. It is. It's it's what's making possible for both of us.

  Kaely Harrod 15:51

  Yeah. Yeah. Well, and, and I know that on the doula side, it's actually really super helpful to be clear on like, how am I going to show up for consultation? And, you know, because, because on our side, like I'm doing multiple consultations a week sometimes, right? So I'm having this conversation over and over and over again.

  But on the client side, what's the benefit of showing up to a conversation where the doula is very clear about what that conversation is going to be and how is that different in terms of the buying experience and the customer experience?

  Lisa Vee 16:25

  Yeah, this is so juicy. I always love to bring up just the simple fact that if we can stay curious and not feel like we're in a pressure cooker, what's gonna happen is we're gonna start to help that person on the other side unlock all of the reasons that they're really, really looking for this support and really kind of connect back to their why. And so it starts to become like a transformational experience for the buyer right out of the gate before they've even hired us.

  And when you can look at your consultation from that lens, you absolutely start to step into what I call like that tour guide mentality. And this is why I'm so big on like, don't bring a super salesy script to the table because you're gonna sound robotic. It's really not about memorizing lines. So I teach a framework because it's not about like, well, where are we headed? Let's jump ahead. Or let's not even be like present in the moment. It's more built about powerful questions where we can hold space for this mother, this birthing person and guide the conversation toward that clarity. Because without the clarity that you just talked about, that mom is not gonna feel safe enough to dive into your support. And now she's left hanging. And that's a tragedy on both ends.

  Kaely Harrod 17:49

  Yeah. Well, and I think that again goes back to the feeling of like, this isn't about me as an individual person. It's about like your recipe for sales, right? Like that is kind of that icky feeling, even if you're like, actually your services are great, right? Or like, I don't think you're trying to like get over on me, you know, like, but, but still I feel like you're, this is a canned response, you know, like it's a little AI ish, you know, I'm getting, and that I think is hard because it is kind of against what we hear a lot in marketing stuff, right?

  Like a lot of it is like, you need to build an urgency and it needs to look like this and you need to do this. And this is how you like, even a phrase that's like, I do this in this way for these people like, and just like copy and paste, right? And I think that's one thing that you and I align on so much is we're not, we don't sell a framework that's just like, okay, take Lisa out and put your name in instead. No, no, part of what we're helping you do is be like, okay, Lisa, what's your magic? Like, where do we go from there? How do we talk to your people? Cause your people aren't my people. So I don't know them. You know them. What does that look like? Like really lean into what you already know, like you said. So anyway.

  Lisa Vee 19:11

  Yeah, we're not forcing anyone, right? Like, we're not forcing anyone into a yes. We're, we're asking real depth questions. We're listening deeply, which is something doulas are already incredible at. And we're giving her permission to make an empowered decision.

  And we're, we're putting her in the driver's seat. And the beauty of all of this is that doulas can rest assured, like, I already know how to hold space. I do it all the time. It's, it's what I'm great at. And so I just like to teach doulas how to hold space in their business the same way.

  Kaely Harrod 19:46

  Yeah. Yeah. I love that.

  Um, one of the things that I have been seeing you speak a lot about on Instagram that I would love for you to dive into a bit is the follow-up. I think that doulas, I mean, oftentimes we're sort of like already have that a little bit of like, please hire me. And then we're just like, if they want me, they'll do it.

  Lisa Vee 20:09

  Yeah.

  Kaely Harrod 20:10

  to say about the hot, the follow-up that isn't, doesn't need to be gross. It doesn't need to be like in 24 hours, your price expires.

  Like, but, but like, how do we do that in a way that also shows who we are and does bring in more sales.

  Lisa Vee 20:25

  Yeah, I this might be my favorite topic because when I talk about leadership and how you need to guide this this mama, the follow up is really the true test of this, because so many of us feel like we're annoying or we're bugging if we reach out after the consultation, for example. But the truth is 66 percent of of sales that I make within my business today is within follow up, not in the first conversation. So that usually makes people kind of like widen their eyes a little bit. But that's the truth.

  And if you are somebody that is getting ghosted on the regular. So, you know, you have the consultation and then you're met with silence or you walk away from a consultation or a conversation and you're pretty sure you nailed it. And then that mama doesn't book you. And you're you're left there questioning like what went wrong. I want to validate those feelings. It's not a feel good thing and and break down what that usually means. So we have to actually back this up a bit because ghosting usually means there's some confusion. It's not a rejection. So if she left that conversation feeling really good and you were feeling that energy, but she's lacking clarity or you didn't lead the conversation, maybe as good as you could have, you didn't step into that guide role, then that's usually where there's a disconnect and that mama could still walk away feeling really good, but also walk away not knowing if you're the one. And so I usually urge doulas to try to stay away from just a casual coffee chat vibe, because this is really a decision making container at the end of the day.

  And so the follow up is I like to approach it in a feminine follow up in a feminine flow. And it's a closing process that creates more safety and more momentum. That's how I would define it. So I typically will say that if you are able to reach out within 24 hours, I would recommend doing so. I've had a lot of doulas say to me, that's way too soon, Lisa. But I but I like to write on that momentum and excitement. I like to ask this mama, like, has anything what's coming up for you since our conversation? I'm giving her an opportunity to really talk through anything that she's processed over the last 24 hours, which is probably quite a bit. Yeah. And so so if I'm just going to kind of do like some high level tips, it would really be to reach out sooner than you normally would think is appropriate because it is appropriate to continue to lead this woman. And I also want you to really detach and not put that rejection piece on on it as a label, because usually it just means that we need to give her more clarity.

  Kaely Harrod 23:30

  Yeah. Well, and I love the, like the feminine energy piece of it, because I think again, like that 24 hour follow-up is gross. If you're like, your chance to hire me expires by midnight, you know, like if it's that, and that's not actually true, right? Like there is urgency sometimes in our work, right? There are times where we're like, listen, I only have one spot and another family's interviewing for that spot. Right. That is true. But urgency that is false and fabricated feels gross, right?

  And that's not that follow-up. The follow-up is more like, how can I answer your questions, right? Like, what does it look like to have clarity for you in this? That's the follow-up that also shows them who you are, right? That allows them another more dynamic glimpse into you as a person.

  Lisa Vee 24:23

  Yeah. And I love bringing up the fact that follow-up is very closely linked to the closing and the end of the conversation. So what I mean by that is I like to debrief consultations with my clients. And so I will sit down with Adula and we will kind of like go back in time and work through what felt good, what didn't feel as good, where do we need refinement, and what can we learn from this consultation. It's incredibly powerful to do this.

  I do this with every single sales conversation that I have. And the question that I ask like no matter who it is in front of me is did you ask for the sale? And very, very often the answer is we'll know or kind of. Because if we don't, if we don't ask for the sale, what happens is we lose direction because now we are not able to understand where they're coming from, where they're stuck, where they're hesitating, what's holding them back. And so we leave that consult or conversation unsure of where to go next. And it makes the follow-up 10 times harder.

  So if I have a client who's like, oh, I never follow up, I like to dig into that and ask, is that because you don't ask for the sale? And often yes, that is the answer. So asking for the sale, which is like its own podcast episode entirely.

  Kaely Harrod 26:00

  Like, it's so.

  Lisa Vee 26:01

  number three. Yeah, which I'm down for, as you know. But it's so critical because when we don't do that, we are left in limbo. We are left guessing where did she need more leadership from me? Where is she feeling a lack of clarity? Where is she unsure or uncertain? And now when we go to follow up, we're really throwing darts and we have no idea. And so that's the power of having a framework that's very intentional so that when we get into the follow-up and we approach that in a very feminine way, we can be really, really honest and we can be really, really curious.

  So if I ask for the sale on the call and she says, I really can't afford it and we end the call in a really warm place and she's going to have a conversation with her partner, look at finances. Now the next day when I go to follow up, I can say I know that the investment felt heavy in the moment. I would love to hear from you. Is that a budget issue or is there something else there that you want to talk through? I'm not just like coming out of left field and checking in random. And that's where like to your point, it doesn't have to feel gross 24 hours later or 48 hours later or whatever feels good to you.

  Kaely Harrod 27:22

  Yeah. Yeah. I love that.

  And I do think that the piece that is like having clarity on where this is, like I love that you go back to like, Oh, is that because you don't offer your, your sales in the first, you know, like, I mean, it's like you have a lovely conversation with someone and then you're like, I don't know how to hire you. Like, did you tell them what to do if they want you as their doula, you know, like even just that little piece of clarity. So their expectations are clear. Your expectations are clear, you know, and it can look different for all of us, but there has to be that piece. Like, what do I expect from you? Are you going to send me a contract? Are you going to send me a package? Are you going to send like, what do I get next? How does this work going forward? You know.

  Lisa Vee 28:12

  Yeah, and you brought up expectations, and the last thing I want to say on this is that here's what happens if we don't follow up. If we don't follow up, we are actually confirming the very fears that she has on a subconscious level often around is this woman gonna show up for me?

  Is this doula gonna hold me? Is this doula gonna support me in the way that I need her to? And by you just letting her fall off a cliff or leave her hanging or not touch base for another week, she is going to have those same fears reinforced, and it's actually gonna hurt your ability to close that sail. And then that's, again, a tragedy because now she doesn't have the support she needs, and you don't have the opportunity to support her, and it's a lose-lose.

  Kaely Harrod 29:00

  Yeah. Yeah. 100%. Yeah.

  I love that. So we will be back for a third part to this conference. Once a quarter or so, we'll maybe have these. Lisa, what are the easiest ways for people to connect with you and continue learning from your beautiful wisdom?

  Lisa Vee 29:20

  Yes. Um, let's definitely keep the conversation flowing. I would love to invite you to check out my freebie. It's called three must ask questions to close doula consults, to book yourself out. And you can find that at the Lisa V dot com slash top three.

  And I'll send you that link. It's V E E. Or you could just hit up my podcast on loud mouth Lisa and we talk all things sales, psychology, birth work, growth. It's a great time.

  Kaely Harrod 29:49

  Yeah. I love that so much. Thank you so much for taking time to hang out with us. And I look forward to having you again in the future.

  Lisa Vee 29:56

  This was so much fun, as always. Thank you, and it's been an honor.

  Kaely Harrod 30:03

  Thanks for joining us for this episode of the doula tips and tits podcast. If you learned something today or had an aha moment, we'd love for you to share that on Instagram and tag us at Harad doula so we can celebrate alongside you.

  If you found this podcast helpful, we would so appreciate you taking a second to leave a rating and a review on your favorite podcast app that helps other doulas find us as we do this work together. This podcast is intended as educational and entertainment. It is not medical advice or business advice. Please consult your own medical or legal team for your own needs around your health and your business.

  We'll see you again soon.

ASK A QUESTION!!! My plan is to start Friday Q&A (we need a new name, I know!) but first I need your questions! Submit them using the form below:

https://www.harroddoulaservices.com/ask-me-a-question

We have a guest!!! At long last we are joined by Lisa Vee of the podcast Loudmouth Lisa about why selling feels so awkward for heart-led birth workers — and how to reframe it into something sacred, powerful, and effective. Lisa shares personal stories, myth-busting, and tangible strategies so doulas can stop undercharging, stop getting ghosted, and finally book clients with confidence.

From Lisa:

“I always say I never meant to be a business coach—I was a doula first. My unmedicated, out-of-hospital birth experience cracked something wide open in me. It made me passionate about autonomy and helping women find their voices in birth.

I built my doula practice from scratch, got fully booked, and then hit that wall so many of us hit—passion wasn’t paying the bills. I realized I was pouring my whole heart into serving families, but without sales skills, I was staying broke and burnt out.

So I leaned on my background in sales, mixed it with my lived experience as a doula, and created a way of selling that actually feels good—heart-led, authentic, and repeatable. Now I get to help other doulas stop undercharging, stop hiding, and actually build businesses that support them back.

That’s how I landed here—bridging the worlds of sales and birth work, so more doulas can keep doing the work they love without sacrificing themselves ”

CONNECT With Lisa: 

Grab my free resource: thelisavee.com/top3 (The 3 Must-Ask Questions to Close Doula Consults).

Tune into my podcast Loudmouth Lisa for more unapologetic doula sales strategies.

CONNECT with Kaely on TikTok or  Instagram

https://www.tiktok.com/@doulacoach

https://www.instagram.com/Harroddoula/

If you like this episode, don't forget to share it to your Instagram stories and tag me @harroddoula

Doula Tips and Tits is produced by Kaely Harrod of Harrod Doula Services

It is sponsored by The Doula Biz Blueprint Self-Paced Class for Doulas Launching Successful and Sustainable Businesses! 

Music by Madirfan: Hidden Place on Pixabay